jmtorres | Oh my god

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Oh my god

I cannot fix all the badfic and I should tamp down hard on the desire to TRY. Like, that one wasn't even badly written, it just could have been more interesting with a slightly different premise, and it was off a kinkmeme so you fill what you get asked, I get that.

AND I DID NOT NEED SLAVE!TONY IN MY HEAD ASKING FOR A BETTER STORY FML

ETA: Other things that freak me out about fanfiction: horrifying Tony with Steve/Howard. And like, the weird thing is, I'm pretty sure, based on the whole Carter legacy, that if Steve had slept with Howard it would turn him into an obsessed creepface about Tony, but I don't get the sense that fandom is drawing that parallel, I think fandom is just having its own personal id all over everything creepface issues. (I SAY THIS WITH LOVE. I AM NOT JUDGING YOUR CREEPFACE. MUCH.)

On the other hand, I think it would be really hilarious to horrify STEVE with Tony knowing about Steve/Howard. It was just one of those things--Dad bagged Captain America. (I am imagining Tony got told as a teenager when he started sleeping with boys and Howard was like "You think this is a rebellion? Let me tell you about my boyfriends, trust me, you're not rebelling against anything here," and frankly, Steve is HORRIFIED that the tale of their LOVE got used this way. Tony is like, "Whatever, I was pretty horrible as a teenager, I probably deserved it." Ahahaha, oh Tony, as a teenager you were horrible. Yes.)

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...slave!Tony? *perks up*

Worlds of no. (I can link you to the original story if you like.)

Is this a "No, definitely no." or a "No. Seriously, I mean it. No talking me into it. Nu-uh. I am not writing this, dammit"?

And yes please, I'm curious now.

Red.

That's why I asked - I have some people who post wanting to be talked into writing something, and some people who are posting just to talk about not writing, and I don't know you well enough yet to guess which you meant.

I would appreciate a link to the original story if you have it handy though.

It's always a bugger when plotbunnies pop up and get demanding - I've been bunnied with quite a few I can't write because they squick me for various reasons, and the muse is sitting there making big eyes while I go "hell no!"

I could tell what the question was, but I safeworded rather than pick one of the options because both options were full of "no".

Pretty much I expect to be taken at my word about saying no--to writing fic or anything else--even if I am funny about saying no. My personality tends toward snark and my cultural programming leads me to soften refusals with humor, so even if I said "No. Seriously, I mean it. No talking me into it. Nu-uh. I am not writing this, dammit"? I would still mean: No. Seriously. No. So rather than risk being unclear: red. My answer to remixing slave!Tony fic is red.

Also: facepalm: my cultural programming in action: my response to your first query was just "NO." and I spent about five minutes finessing it because I thought it was maybe rude. Things I said: "Maybe not all caps?" Finally I settled on "Worlds of no" as a slightly humorous phrasing, and an offer of link. And we ended up in the weird interpretation place because a softened no is culturally (fannishly cultural as well as... god, so much everywhere, I can't even) not a real no, which is problematic as hell.

*nods* Yeah, your answer was a good way of doing it - and now I'll know in future that if you post something like this, that's what you mean.

Funnily enough, in a way it's my cultural programming coming into play too - because my experience of "People post saying they're not writing something" is that they do mean "Talk me into it/encourage me". Obviously that only holds for fic posts, not "serious stuff", but yeah, it's going by what I've been "taught" by other people. I spent years taking people at face value, then got told I was interpreting people wrong. Damn confusing human beans.

The whole softening-no thing can be so awkward, I've been cursed out to hell and back for actually enforcing my boundaries (I got called a rude c*** this week for telling someone that if I wanted disability advice I would ask.) because some people get so pissy about people actually having boundaries.

Funnily enough, in a way it's my cultural programming coming into play too - because my experience of "People post saying they're not writing something" is that they do mean "Talk me into it/encourage me". Obviously that only holds for fic posts, not "serious stuff", but yeah, it's going by what I've been "taught" by other people.

Yeah, I get that, I just spent a fair chunk of time questioning myself because I wasn't totally sure that I've never done that. I haven't delved deep into my writing history, but checking back in stuff I've done this fall--like, okay, this one, where I'm remixing bdsmworld fic, I can see the similarities in how I posted about it, there was a fair amount of "FML" in each, but--and I ended up going back to check my chatlogs in that one, because it seemed plausible that I might treat "no" differently in one-on-one chat (and that it might carry over between chat and comments with people I talk to one-on-one a lot), but it looks like I was at no point saying "I am not writing this," I was only saying "This is a terrible idea, WHY am I writing this," and I didn't even post to my DW until I was already writing it.

(I think it is... um, let's call it an interesting confluence that the one story that I was totally onboard with writing despite my opinion it was terrible was a consensual BDSMworld, whereas the one that I'm like "ahahahaha I could make that more interesting but NO" is the one where Tony was literally enslaved, against his will.)

In another case,

azurelunatic and I were couching in terms of would my headperson consent to a particular story being written, rather than whether *I* would write it. So it's a weird case? But I did initially say no. And then write... a version of it. The thing is, though, Azz didn't try to convince me to write it, I just had the damn brain weasel and changed my mind about writing it. So that's--I don't think that my right to change my mind should dilute the power of any refusal I give, but I could see how it could--which is again, frustrating and problematic as hell.

There is a line in a Killers song: "If the answer's no, can I change your mind?" which is not awesome, that "no" is not something that's taken at face value, but it least it TEXTUALIZES that there are two (relevant) kinds of "no" and asks which "no" is in play rather than just assuming any no is a convince-me "no." Similar to what you asked me, but part of what bothered me about what you asked me was that your characterization of the convince-me "no" involved all words that literally said no: I feel like the can I convince you/change your mind question needs to be textual, not a case of "surely if you protest THAT MUCH I can read in subtext of protesting TOO MUCH" or something.

I have all kinds of thinky thoughts on this. I almost want to make a full entry of it but I am not sure I want the kind of attention that would probably attract. Sigh.

Edited (--use of the word "not" is important in correctly expressing certain thoughts *facepalm*) 2011-11-27 00:19 (UTC)

What you're saying made sense - as I said earlier on, part of it was not knowing you, and not knowing what you mean by things, so I only have "other people in fandom" to go on as a benchmark - and the people I was going off do use "no" and "I'm not" in posts where everyone knows they're waiting to be talked into something.

Reading down the comments, I didn't even think of this as being related to sex, because I don't view fic that way. How you reacted makes more sense - the "no means no" rstatement is something I always equate with rape discussions, and you moving straight to that made me defensive as hell. But if your view on fic-writing is that it's a sexual thing, then that *does* make sense now.

Funnily enough, all this was what I was hoping to avoid by *asking*. Ah well, happens.

(Also, it probably goes without saying but since we're talking communication I feel I should say - I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable up there.)

(Aaaaand... that's another language thing. Because on the one hand, I say "if" because I don't know if I did, and I don't want to make assumptions, but on the other, I know there's been big blow-ups about how apparently "if" means an insincere apology, and... yeah. Complicated. It's entirely possible I shouldn't be allowed to talk when migrainey!)

You're fine! I understood your apology as sincere, and for the record I am... culturally uncomfortable and spending a long time grappling with a reply comment to content above, but I don't blame you for falling into our mutual cultural programming traps.

I'm glad you understood/it came across as intended.

Aren't cultural expectations fun? And by fun, I mean giant, complicated pain in the arse.

I just want to say that I'm finding this conversation fascinating and I am sitting here completely rethinking the way I use social constructions like "I am not writing this story." (I think I usually explicitly invite people to convince me otherwise when I am half-willing to be convinced? But I am not sure. And I probably wouldn't mention not writing something in the first place unless I knew I was comfortable with people telling me I should. And that's still sort of iffy altogether.)

It's hard! I haven't yet turned up a specific example in my back catalog, but I have a suspicion I react differently to people assuming a convince-me "no" depending on who's doing the assuming. So it's possible I'm using "I'm not writing it" differently with different people. And my journal audience include both people I chat with regularly that I might be using a familiar "convince-me" no with and people I don't talk to everyday for whom I'm using a polite-softened but absolute "no." IT IS POSSIBLE I AM DOING THAT, WHICH WOULD JUST CONFUSE EVERYONE.

The more I look at my chat logs, the more I think that what I am actually most frequently doing is reserving the right to change my mind? Like, I might say "I am not writing this" and mean it. And then start plotting it with a friend, and not react badly to my friend plotting back because I started plotting it. And then when the friend says "so you're writing this, right?" it's an acceptable check-in of whether I changed my mind, since I've been displaying further interest, rather than unacceptable pressure/persuasion when I initially say no.

So, like:

1. When I say I won't write something, I mean it. Even if I say it humorously, no still means no.
2. I reserve the right to change my mind.
3. My right to change my mind does not give you the right to try to change my mind for me, unless I invite you to by saying "convince me" or start talking to you about the details of the thing I'm not writing.
4. Even if I start spinning details on a plotbunny, I don't have to write it. You can ask me, but you don't get to expect it from me: I still get to say no.

I don't think any of that is unreasonable, but I do see where there are spaces for cultural misunderstanding.

ETA: Heh, I have found a specific example in my chat logs of "I'm not writing this. Let's plot it!" "So you're writing it now, right?" "Nope, still not writing it! Milk this chat for all it's worth. More plotting?" Hilariously, it was also an abused/slave Tony badfic remix I didn't want to write. MY ISSUES WITH CONSENT, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM. I continue to want to fix all the "consent is absent from this scenario" fic, but not actually write it, because AUGH I FEEL UNCLEAN.

Edited (example of not writing) 2011-11-27 01:38 (UTC)

Actually do you mind if I link to this conversation in my journal, or else start a top-level conversation about it there (linking/crediting you or not)? Because I kind of really want to bring more people into discussing this!

I think what I mean when I say "I am not writing this" is "I am making no commitments and I owe you nothing but let's talk about possibilities anyway." I don't think I'd use it with people who I thought had the power to pressure me in a way I felt uncomfortable? But thinking about how much that kind of thing gets used in a broader fannish context I sort of go ow. Because that's a lot of subtext and caveats going into that "no doesn't always mean no."

(Also I am kind of wondering how I have managed to entirely miss all of these slave!Tony badfics! Maybe my decision to only follow kinkmemes for quite small fandoms was a good one after all.)

I am all... conflicted about whether I want to deal with it. The Because that's a lot of subtext and caveats going into that "no doesn't always mean no." yeah, rape culture isn't always specifically about sex, it's more pervasive than that, there's a problem of "if no doesn't mean no for this, I can assume no doesn't mean no for that either" and--

And also, in this case, it is about sex, about a sexual interaction. I was reading this post about solving rape culture forever and part of her definition is "any kind of sexual experience, any kind at all, whether it's responding to flirtation or spending the weekend in bed with you or anything in between" and it got me thinking: I feel like if someone asks a writer to write them something that hits a kink of theirs, that's a sexual interaction. Actually. Like, there's extra bits of things, like if the writer posts that story publicly it's not JUST for the original requester, it becomes an interaction with multiple people, call it maybe exhibition or something, and it's, it's trading in more removed fantasies than like, direct cybersexing or whatever, but it is, actually, a sexual interaction to ask for/write a kink for someone. So the notion of a "no that doesn't mean no" is SUPER problematic in this context.

I was considering writing up my own entry and being all "argh but do I want to deal with it" so um, actually, you writing up an entry so it can be over there and me not necessarily have to deal with--that would work really well for me! I am okay with you linking here, but I would prefer you not just post a link but put whatever content you want to discuss (your own, quotes of me also fine if you want) IN the entry to encourage replies there. I can deal with some replies here, just--not all the replies. (And I might freeze threads if it gets too much for me. But I'll try to leave the content up, if it's not poisonous.)

Link me to your entry, I'll ETA the main post to say.

(Also I am kind of wondering how I have managed to entirely miss all of these slave!Tony badfics! Maybe my decision to only follow kinkmemes for quite small fandoms was a good one after all.)

Hahaha, I do not even follow kinkmemes. I am reading stuff off my pinboard network and things people post to AO3 after they de-anon on kinkmemes. Basically what happened is I came to the end of all the Steve/Tony--sort of--and went back and starting reading things I had skipped over on my first run, in desperation, but um, it turns out there was a REASON I skipped some things. *facepalm*

Edited (em tag fail) 2011-11-27 02:33 (UTC)

Ah, okay! I'll write something up to post maybe tomorrow, then, I think I am probably ready to be thick-skinned about this particular issue.

...you were around for that meta kerfuffle years ago about how all slashers are queer because writing slash is a sexual act, weren't you? Because on the one hand, no, we are talking about a bad Steve/Tony AU, it is not the same thing, but on the other hand, it is all a continuum, and also we are digging deep into our vulnerable places, and sharing them, when we do this, that's why these issues keep coming up.

...and I see, that explains it. When I ran out of first-run Steve/Tony recently I decided for some reason to instead start re-reading all of the Eroica fic on AO3. In chronological order, starting with the ones that were written in the 90s. And speaking of OMG THE CONSENT PROBLEMS. :P Either my memory has gone all rosy, or I really have gotten accustomed to much better treatment of this stuff in only the past three or four years since the last time I did that.

I don't recall that meta kerfuffle. I may have eyerolled and given it a miss, because I am queer? But I mean, for me fanfiction is totally a political act, and my identity is at least partly a political thing, but you know, mostly I'm queer because women: I am attracted to them. And I hear that not all slash writers feel that way. So what's true for me is not necessarily true for them. Like, a straight woman could be interested in stories of two dudes banging because she's straight and they're dudes she's attracted to, and if her definition of her identity is straight, then she's straight. (On the other hand, I also hear that most slash fans assume we're primarily a community of straight women interested in dudes banging, just like straight dudes interested in lesbians, while a number of polls seem to indicate slash fandom contains a vast number of queer women who think we're more of a minority here than we are.)

Fannish experience: multiple.

Heh - I'm a queer man, and for me the writing of fic is never political, and I hate it when people assume it is for me. It's interesting how far apart the experiences can be.

(I have one political fic, because it's about the experiences of someone growing up in The Troubles in Belfast. At the time I noted quite strongly that it was a departure for me!)

I think this conversation is at one remove for me because I don't see writing porn for people, even porn for their specific kinks, as a sexual action--because the way I approach fandom porn and the way I approach porn-I-use-to-get-off is completely different. Not that I don't think people use porn written for fandom as a way to get off? But since it's totally outside my sexuality (and women are pretty far outside my sexuality, I'm heteroflexible) it's a very weird thing to me to realize oh, this is hitting people in different vulnerable places than I have, where for me fanfic is mostly about ego.

Clearly this is why you want to pat my characters onna head and I'm busy squirming around trying to kill my shame enough to write porn at all.

THIS MAY HAVE SOME RELEVANCE, YES.

It's not that I don't have fandom kinks! But they're the kind of kinks that make me go "Awwww!" and want to give someone a hug! Even when they're hardcore porn!

Just so you know, I've made a post that's tangenty to this. I've tried to make it as vague as possible - just referred to you as "someone I don't know very well" - and it is not an attempt to "gather evidence you were wrong" or something. It's me questioning my assumption/experience about people wanting to be enabled over writing.

So it won't bring anything down on you, but I thought it was polite to let you know it existed.

To clarify re links--would you like me not to link to your journal when I edit my entry to point to conversation elsewhere?

Yes please (And I appreciate you asking). I'm specifically asking "people I know", and people following links from elsewhere would throw that off. It's not meant to be part of this conversation - it's me going off on a tangent.

I feel like if someone asks a writer to write them something that hits a kink of theirs, that's a sexual interaction.

This really rings true to me. I definitely know that "omg write me [something] because that is SO HOT unf unf unf" makes me feel the same way that being asked to take off my shirt or whatever by an obviously lascivious person. They're asking you to perform an act that is all about their sexuality. Which isn't bad, not in either case--but it's not sexually neutral, either, and both circumstances make me uncomfortable if they're unwanted.

Because what's SO HOT unf unf unf is not just the characters, it's what your brain produces about them. As a writer I feel like I'm putting a piece of my id on display when I write porn (and if I don't, I feel like I'm writing IKEA porn).

(All of this comment is about me. When I say "lazy writing" I am talking about my own experience, not accusing anyone else of being lazy)

I'm finding this fascinating because a couple of my fics that are other people's favourites are ones where I went "OK, I really don't do this (kink), but...". Because I had to get into the character's head and find out exactly what *they* found hot about it, whereas if they're doing something I know all about then yeah, it's probably a little lazier writing because it's more on the surface.

For example - I wrote a hand-feeding snippet. I really don't do that, I have issues with food, I'm still a little surprised I kept my brain at arm's length long enough to write it. But for those 20 minutes or whatever, it didn't matter that I didn't like it - I had to get in the boy's head and work out why he liked it, why it was so wonderful from his POV. And that came out on paper, and it's all him. More recently I did a bit involving gloryholes, I Do Not Get It... and yet it got a tonne of appreciative comments, because it worked for the character.

So writing stuff that's not about my ID seems to produce more interesting porn. Again, comes back to "Look how different people's experiences are", which is what's fascinating.

Your experiences seem more parallel to mine -- I get favourable responses when I'm writing something that doesn't appeal to me, and writingwise I mostly regard kinkmemes as a source of challenges in varying levels of difficulty, rather than the satisfaction of a personal desire.

Yeah - I read kinkmemes looking for my kind of thing (not in a "searching porn to turn me on" way, just looking for things I enjoy) but I read the prompts looking for something new.

This is now making me wonder about interpretations of requests. Because I have had people tell me "You should write [kink]", in a way that makes it obvious that they're after it because it turns them on, but I've also had people encourage me to write certain stories, which may or may not have been about turning them on. So now I'm wondering how my agreement that someone should totally write X because it would be awesome has been taken in the past. Hmm.

(A couple of years of putting up with certain people who would tell me things like they "had alone time" or "jumped [their] husband" after reading fic has left me oblivious to anything but anvils.)

I don't know if you've ever seen it, but I've definitely seen people leave comments on peoples' fic that say things like, "OMG, the way Bob jumped Pete was so hot! You should write a kidnapping fic where Bob has to rescue Pete and it's all so UST-y because he's remembering [blahblahblah]" and it's pretty obviously not about what the writer has written; it's about what the reader wants. And I think there should be boundaries around that--people should recognize that sometimes, that is your greasy id-issues. They're the kind of things that are actually subject to boundaries, even if it's just recognizing that your lustful ideas and the author's fic are not of the same part; they're separate.

Oh no, I absolutely have seen that - I've had that! I'm definitely not denying those exist, I'm wondering where the boundary is, but I think it's one of those "I'll know it when I see it". I just don't want to come off as skeevy if people are asking for suggestions, you know?

Like, there's extra bits of things, like if the writer posts that story publicly it's not JUST for the original requester, it becomes an interaction with multiple people, call it maybe exhibition or something, and it's, it's trading in more removed fantasies than like, direct cybersexing or whatever, but it is, actually, a sexual interaction to ask for/write a kink for someone.

Fascinating meta is fascinating! Not least because I have written for a kinkmeme (twice, and a very small one; it's not like it's a hobby), and also have read several (large, popular, long-running) kinkmemes. While I've evaluated them in terms of openness versus privacy, I've never considered this angle before.

Disclaimer: Subjective statement is subjective, and in no way intended to suggest YOU'RE WRONG! or that your experience is not valid! Just that my own experiences and perceptions are quite different.

For me, not even writing -- and at least once it was a pairing I'd never even have considered reading -- struck me as I-am-doing-a-sexual-thing. *shrugs*

In my head, I think I experience it as "it's all about fannish encouragement" (we all have kinks, you never know who shares your kink, and ANYBODY, not just BNFs, can write and be seen!) and, for me as a writer, it's about getting a bunch of no-pressure challenges, seeing what grabs me, and incidentally making somebody feel happy/accepted.

I don't really think of reading fanfic, even explicit fanfic, as a sexual thing, either, or at least not 98% of the time; it's an emotional high rather than a physiological arousal.

Please just tell me to butt out if I'm being pushy or intrusive, but would you have felt better if the 'convince me' option had been "No, I shouldn't even be thinking about writing this, what's wrong with me, no one else will want to read it."?

Also, are you thinking of the slave!Tony where he's been shuttled between pre-Civil War 616 and an AU where Steve went crazy and won Civil War, where Steve wasn't woken up until post-Civil War and ends up taking charge of ony or where Tony's a kidnapped noble's son?

I would have liked an option that was something like "no, I am not writing it, but I am willing to consider it." Any string of "no" is still NO, repetition does not actually imply that it is coy. "No, but [mitigation]" is the thing that is not a complete no.

I don't really feel like the option you describe is better but it could just be because the circumstances do not fit me. But then, there's not going to be a coy no that fits me here. Guessing at reasons other than "I don't want to write it" for why I might say no doesn't really work.

And, wow, you have definitely found more slave/abused Tony than I have. I've only read one of those.

Thanks for indulging me. Yes, your second option is a much better way of putting it than anything else mentioned so far.

Good options would be "No, I don't want to write this." or "Maybe, leaning towards no if you push me to give an answer now. Do you want to talk em into it?" then?

Yes, those are better for getting an actual clarification.

I kind of love the last story idea, even if I'm pretty hardcore Steve/Peggy. Lovingly mocking Steve's innocent naivete is fun.

I am pro Steve/Peggy! Also Steve/Bucky. Also threesome. Also um. Okay, let's face it, I ship Steve/almost everybody. So yeah.

I am really pro- characters I like getting what they want. So my glee in all ships being otherwise equal, I like Steve/Peggy because he seemed to want her a whole lot.

(I, ah, kind of want a counter-canon where Peggy married Howard and Tony is the ~son of the woman Steve loved~)

Have I explained my philosophy of Steve Rogers to you? It's pretty much "HIS FACE. HE SHOULD SMILE A LOT. HIS FAAAAAAAAACE. Let's make him happy." This is not identical to "he should get what he wants" but I feel it is certainly related.

(I, ah, kind of want a counter-canon where Peggy married Howard and Tony is the ~son of the woman Steve loved~)

THIS WOULD MAKE HIM EVEN MORE OF A CREEPFACE, SEE ALSO THE SHARON CARTER WTF.

Like not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that? I'm just sayin'.

I would be all the creepface in the world. On the other hand, it would give me Peggy in the 1950s being a badass executive in Stark Industries, and Howard going, "Guys, don't complain to me. If my VP Logistics were screwing up her job, I'd tell her so. But do not ask me to 'rein in my wife'."

I... don't really like Steve/Howard or Steve/Howard Steve/Tony in succession, but I have to say, a gen ficlet with Steve/Howard backstory where Tony is all, so, you're Dad's ex. And now we're working together. That's... not awkward at all. Was he as much of a dick to you as he was to me?

And Steve is all (headdesk) He TOLD you?!?

That would amuse me.

I am still not thrilled about Steve/Howard and Steve/Tony in succession, but I think as a comment on Steve's canonical tendency toward CREEPFACE, I could take it better.

Hi! I friended you ~~because of things~~ because of Avengers things. :)

Hi! There are totally Avengers things here. *G*

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Oh my god

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Do I need a safeword with fandom? Yes, apparently.

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Last extra comment, honest.

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Re: Do I need a safeword with fandom? Yes, apparently.

Re: Do I need a safeword with fandom? Yes, apparently.

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