jmtorres: (EFC)
jmtorres ([personal profile] jmtorres) wrote2011-04-18 03:20 am

Okay, for the record: A DNA TRIPLE HELIX MAKES NO SENSE.

Apparently some TV writers need this explanation, and maybe it will magically reach them if I post it here.

A DNA TRIPLE HELIX MAKES NO SENSE.

Right, look, if you are positing a completely alien life form from another planet whose genetic inheritance is not recorded in deoxyribonucleic acid but in some other chemical structure, then sure, run with it, they have triple helices of whatever the hell that chemical is. They also most definitely cannot have babies with humans, do you hear me, really not, but okay, fine, that's a losing battle, whatever, Liam Kincaid.

Let us return to the completely absurd and impossible notion of TRIPLE-STRANDED DNA.

Maybe some basic background on what DNA actually is would help? See, okay, you probably know that there's four bases of DNA that chain together to make the strands, and everyone calls them T, A, C, and G. (They have full names but seriously, even geneticists call them T, A, C, and G, so it's sort of a waste of time or else proof of giant dorkery to know what they are.) What you may not realize is that this is two pairs of complementary bases. T and A bond together, and so do C and G. This means that if on one side of the double helix there is a T base, on the other side there is always an A base. If there is a C base on one side, on the other side there is always a G.

So imagine you have a piece of a strand which says:

TACGCGTAGCCCTTTA

The strand that goes with it to form a double helix HAS to say:

ATGCGCATCGGGAAAT

It cannot say anything else. They have to match. If they don't match, they don't connect. They don't form a double helix.

This is the really key thing I am trying to get at: the two strands of DNA in a double helix do not contain different information. They contain mirror images of the same information. It's like one side is ROT13 of the other side, except there's only four letters in the DNA alphabet, so it's more like ROT2. Why the redundancy? Because the bases have to be reactive enough to chemically copy when the strand is unzipped, but there needs to be some way to put them away and make them stop reacting when it's not time to copy them, and just slapping a mirror version on makes a stable storage form.

Therefore adding a third strand to a DNA helix--in the first place, what the fuck does it hook onto, the complementary bases are already hooked to each other, and in the second place, it wouldn't add new information, because strands just--don't. All the bases in the third strand would have to complement the bases in the first two strands, which means: same goddamn information.

If you are adding genetic material to an existing multi-celled Earth life form as we know them, just splice sequences of regular double helices into existing double helices (aka, either make the strands longer or replace segments of the strands). If it makes you feel really special, add a chromosome or two (be aware: having extra chromosomes is associated with some odd syndromes). Don't add a third strand of DNA to the double helices, it is MEANINGLESS.

If you are imagining a something superspecial and different from existing multi-celled Earth life forms as we know them, and you want, say, more data compressed into less length of strand, or compress more data into the same length of strand (I'm looking at you, Fifth Element), what you would do is add more base pairs. Why? Think binary versus base 10. What's 36 in binary? 100100. Look at how many more digits you need to convey the same concept, because you only have two options to choose from. But if you have ten options, you only need to use two digits, because you're conveying more information per digit. The more base pairs are available to encode information, the more compactly the information can be encoded. This is something I want to see in my scifi, people. The weird alien species with more efficient DNA whose base pairs are TACGEFLM or something. I would even be willing to buy, for the sake of the narrative, the shocking revelation that so-and-so-supposedly-human has a handful of E's and F's, and even some L's and M's in their DNA and so is SECRETLY PART ALIEN.

But not more strands. Just don't. More strands is more copies. More strands is redundancy. More strands is NOT more information. It is not. And when you say it is, in my head I am converting all of your technobabble to "Magic magic, magic magic, magic magic. Sorcery, what ho!"

Glad to get that off my chest.

Is this one of those things where I don't know I'm swimming in water because I was raised by a geneticist?
jackandahat: A brown otter, no text. (Default)

[personal profile] jackandahat 2011-04-18 10:35 am (UTC)(link)
Honestly, it's something where I wouldn't have really thought about it because I haven't touched genetics since... year nine, I think? (Age 13/14). Maybe GCSE (Age 15/16).

So while it's something that would make sense to a lot of people if you remind them, I also imagine there's a lot of people who wouldn't blink if it came up in a film or book, because it's something we had a couple of lessons on ten (or twenty) years ago, learned enough to pass the test, then forget unless we were going into a science-based career.

That said, I get where you come from - there's a reason I'm not allowed to watch horse-based films in polite company any more... *hangs head*

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[personal profile] alexseanchai 2011-04-18 10:59 am (UTC)(link)
I never caught that, and I should have.
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[personal profile] dayblaze 2011-04-18 11:31 am (UTC)(link)
It's okay, he's got a double-helix now anyway since the longer he stays on Earth the more human he becomes.

D:
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[personal profile] elistaire 2011-04-18 01:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Awesome post!!

I mean, why not just say that the DNA codes for proteins that normal humans don't have and leave it at that? The 'magic' of protein synthesis is surely a way more viable option for all sorts of stuff!

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[personal profile] niqaeli 2011-04-18 03:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I wasn't raised by a geneticist and this shit was driving me nuts before I knew you. I think that might just be the fact that I am a gigantic fucking nerd about biology, though.

It drives me fucking crazy, though. Look, if you don't want to do your science research, wave your hand airily and don't use words that you don't know what they mean, oh my god, shit like this is part of why the justice system actually has PROBLEMS with genetic evidence because people THINK they know what DNA is and THEY REALLY FUCKING DO NOT.
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[personal profile] xenacryst 2011-04-18 03:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Granted, I could imagine a chemical structure that's a chain of atoms each with three other bonds arranged roughly in a plane at 90 degrees from the chain, and having the things attached to those bonds be arranged in such a way as to induce a helical twisting, but this would not be DNA. I think it would be rather hard for it to behave like DNA, even in some bizarre alien life form, because if you broke it, it would stay broken. It might, however, make a reasonable jet fuel after refinement.

So yeah. Please. A little science with our science fiction. Actually, no. If you're going to do science, be complete enough to make us believe it. Otherwise just punt and call it magic.
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[personal profile] xwingace 2011-04-18 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, if the alienness of the DNA was in the backbone instead of in the basepairs so that adjacent pairs were at a 60 degree angle, then you could have something like triple strand DNA (I'm not sure it'd be a helix). More redundancy like that might also be an evolunionary trait there...

Of course, then human DNA transcription mechanisms wouldn't work anymore either. But then you're into *really* alien biology!

XWA
matt_doyle: (Default)

[personal profile] matt_doyle 2011-04-18 05:35 pm (UTC)(link)
It bothers me, but not nearly to that extent.

I usually just blame Anne McCaffrey, whose Pernese dragons have a triple helix, and whose base pairs (or triads, one hopes?) are unspecified.

Hm. Are there other chemical compounds that it would make sense to use as additional base pairs?
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[personal profile] holyschist 2011-04-18 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
IIRC, the justification for Pernese dragons was that it was how they could have 3 pairs of limbs (does she think insects have triple-stranded DNA? Arachnids quadriple-stranded? Millipedes...lots-stranded? IDK), but maybe I am remembering it as even more stupid than it was.

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holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)

[personal profile] holyschist 2011-04-18 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)
You know, when I first got linked to this post, my thought was "OH NO, did the Pern movie scriptwriters decide to KEEP that particular piece of bullshit?!"

And now I am disheartened to find that it is apparently common. *weeps for science*
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[personal profile] ilyena_sylph 2011-04-18 08:53 pm (UTC)(link)
+1!!!!

This, basically, all over the place.

Why oh why did the stupid have to propagate?

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[personal profile] delux_vivens 2011-04-18 08:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Very well written, but do you *really* read fantasy?

*ducks, runs*

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[personal profile] thingswithwings 2011-04-18 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not a geneticist, wasn't raised by one, and haven't talked about double helices since grade twelve science class, and EVEN I ALSO TEAR MY HAIR OUT when they do this on tv. I just recently watched an episode of Star Trek Voyager that was like, "triple helix!" and I screamed "nooooooooooooo!" But it didn't do any good, because the tv writers didn't hear me.

Anyway, word. And no, I don't think it's a swimming in water thing. MANY PEOPLE KNOW THIS, or would if they thought about it for ten seconds. It's just tv laziness and scifi memes that get copypasted without any brains being involved.
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[personal profile] abyssinia 2011-04-18 09:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Here from Rydra.

First of all, YES! So very much yes. I mean, I could imagine something that isn't built from our nucleic acids that could have a three-stranded chain that would work differently (things group in threes, rather than twos) but it seems like it would take more complexity to code the same thing. Especially when you consider each pair of bases only codes for one protein so it's not like we have double information from having two strands.

If you are imagining a something superspecial and different from existing multi-celled Earth life forms as we know them, and you want, say, more data compressed into less length of strand, or compress more data into the same length of strand (I'm looking at you, Fifth Element), what you would do is add more base pairs.

It's been several years since I took biochemistry, but would that make a difference? I mean, already most of our DNA is never transcribed so you could make it way smaller (more efficient, though more risk of damage) if you used the length more efficiently and with less extraneous bits. And we only have 20 amino acids and most of those already have multiple base pair combinations that code for them. Would that do any good if you didn't have more amino acids? Would it work better to just whittle things down for one set of bases for each amino acid? And you couldn't add too many amino acids or you'd need more than three base pairs to uniquely code for them....

And now my brain is trying to invent alien dna. Oy.
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this comment brought to you by a biochemistry prof

[personal profile] minxy 2011-04-18 10:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Already biology itself has modified it's DNA bases to identify self and not-self, silenced and active. RNA bases in tRNA are, what, 30% modified minimum? with a huge variety of mods. And that's partly to allow for non-Watson Crick recognition in the tRNA core fold.

So, er, the point is that modified bases already exist and I could totally see evolution just encoding them into tri-phosphates and allowing recognition by polymerases. I could also see interesting unethical lab accidents in which eeeeeeevil scientists somehow incorporate the plethora of modified bases (anything from ratioactive tags to variations on ATCG), available to lab scientists, but that's just me.

You are also totally correct that all the filler, no transcribed stuff could be removed, and with the more efficient use of space you'd have DNA a lot more like mitochondrial DNA, with little extra stuff, but you'd probably have less control over silencing and regulation, and if you really go all mitochondrial on it, you might relax specificity on the wobble base recognition and you'd have reeeeeeally interesting increase mutational rates. Possibly just shortened lifespan stuff, possibly all X-men, but let us not speak of the X-men froonium genetics.

...I'll stop now.
Edited 2011-04-18 22:04 (UTC)

FROONIUM

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ide_cyan: Dalbello peering into a screen (Default)

[personal profile] ide_cyan 2011-04-18 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)
What you may not realize is that this is two pairs of complementary bases. T and A bond together, and so do C and G. This means that if on one side of the double helix there is a T base, on the other side there is always an A base. If there is a C base on one side, on the other side there is always a G.

Thank you!

I know some about DNA, but I hadn't learned this via cultural osmosis.

Great post.
loligo: (skeptic)

[personal profile] loligo 2011-04-19 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
I can't remember which sci-fi show it was (probably X-Files), but there was an episode where Scientist O' The Week shows our detectives the gene sequence that she obtained from some mysterious biological sample, and she's like "ZOMG, there are six base pairs!" and my husband leapt up from his seat, yelling at the TV. "If it's not A, T, C or G, it won't be amplified! It won't be read! The sequencer won't even know it's there!!"

It's hard to be a scientist who loves sci-fi.
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[personal profile] sanguinity 2011-04-19 02:56 am (UTC)(link)
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
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[personal profile] grey_bard 2011-04-19 04:17 am (UTC)(link)
No, it is not just you. When I first saw it, I exploded with incredulous laughter. NO REALLY WTF SANCTUARY. I just. I can't even.
Edited (Freudian slip typo) 2011-04-19 04:18 (UTC)
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[personal profile] eleanorjane 2011-04-19 09:49 am (UTC)(link)
This entire post is made of awesome. I suspect I am not able to comment on your 'swimming in water' question as my first degree was in molecular biology, but SERIOUSLY, people.

(I'm sure these creators would be so offended if we called their writing "fantasy" rather "sci-fi", but it is.)

On the other hand, I am reminded of my last boyfriend, a trainee police officer. He couldn't watch anything for similar reasons. Fake law enforcement: even more pernicious than fake science, apparently!

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puckling: (It's okay. I'm a doctor.)

[personal profile] puckling 2011-04-19 03:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Here via [personal profile] glass_icarus:

♥ ♥ ♥ Because seriously, THIS POST IS MADE OF AWESOME.
yvi: DNA double helix (Science - DNA)

[personal profile] yvi 2011-04-19 03:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I specialised in Evolutionary Biology (and Bioinformatics). Gosh, these kinds of things make me agitated.

[personal profile] ex_froggie555 2011-04-19 03:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Was linked here from LJ via glass_icarus

Awesome, awesome post. Thank you so much for sharing this.
feanna: The cover of an old German children's book I inherited from my mother (Default)

[personal profile] feanna 2011-04-19 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)
And when you say it is, in my head I am converting all of your technobabble to "Magic magic, magic magic, magic magic. Sorcery, what ho!"

This is my reaction to (almost anything, it's gotten to a point where I'm terribly surprised when they make a scifi/futuristic kind of sense) anything medical on Fringe.

mild spoilers

To this day I want to cry at the idea of TRANSPLANTING MEMORIES (and the attached personality) through B-CELLS/LYMPHOCITES. (IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE CALLED MEMORY CELLS!!! GET IT???? I mean given that it was the same individual from alternate universes, this would make it possible to actually transfer the cells, but all that would do is transfer immunity. Also the 3d ultrasound with the yellow clouds and the arterial doppler sound that got faster when they zoomed in...)
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[personal profile] adalger 2011-04-19 04:41 pm (UTC)(link)
(here via [personal profile] niqaeli)

I consider myself not an ignorant buffoon, but that would have gone over my head until someone like you pointed it out. On the other hand, please do not ask me to watch anything with a nuclear reactor in it where they try pretend to explain anything about how it works. Unless you want to see posts like this from me.

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[personal profile] glass_icarus 2011-04-19 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Hello! I would like to say that this a) is AWESOME AND MADE ENTIRELY OF YES, and b) made me laugh so hard I forgot to comment. (Also, signal-boosted. xD)
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[personal profile] pauamma 2011-04-19 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Do they also have 1.5-helix RNA? :-)

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[personal profile] fbf 2011-04-20 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
*gives you standing ovation*

Not to mention the spiral is very stable and if there was a triple strand it would be easy as anything to rip it like paper.

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