jmtorres | Gah

So I've been reading this epic SPN fic, and it's well-written, which is why I've kept reading for the last hundred thousand words, but it's also anti-Ruby, she's making Sam evil, Sam has to give her up entirely, etc. And like, I kind of said, "Okay, I'll buy into this for the duration of the story, even though I think Ruby is awesome," but I finally figured out what it is about this story that's getting up my nose, and it's not just that it's anti-Ruby, it's that Castiel gets out from under Heaven's thumb and develops feelings and opinions as an 'independent' and questions Heaven's stance on the whole apocalypse thing while Ruby is irredeemable, not given the same ambiguity and space for growth. You could argue that that's very in line with how the end of season four and season five have turned out, but the thing is, this story is a season four AU, started at 4x14 when Ruby was frankly still pretty up in the air, and it's very clearly a fix-it in terms of making the characters talk to each other--I have this whole thesis about how the apocalypse would not have happened if Heaven and Hell had afforded Sam and Dean the opportunity to talk to each other for five consecutive minutes in the course of season four--so every time I come across some line where the hard parts of relationships are getting fixed with actual communication (the bit that set off my navel-gazing here is Castiel going to Sam for advice on how to break it to Dean about him having been the first seal, so that, meta-speaking, Dean will hear it there and not from Alistair), I keep feeling like why're you gonna put all this effort into fixing things for them and not do anything for Ruby?

Part of this comes from I have this really strong sense of Cas and Ruby being parallel, Heaven and Hell's respective manipulators on the Winchester boys. So I feel like fandom (and the show, but dude, I am so seriously off playing in AU land it's not even funny) lets Cas off the hook a lot more than they ought to and hates on Ruby a lot more than she deserves. I think... ideally I think they should have had parallel paths to right down the middle of new loyalties to humanity, but if they're going to have different paths, having the angel turn out to be on our boys' side while the demon is the traitor all along is not interesting, there's nothing unexpected enough to be worth caring about in that storyline.

So sayeth me, anyway.

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Err, I could be mistaken, but from the little bits you mention here, I think that might be

omphalos and my fics?

If so, I can tell you a little about what the thought processes about how we wrote Ruby and why we made the choices we did... I don't feel myself that we were particularly anti-Ruby, but I'd be happy to discuss it with you if you like?

You know, I already closed the tab, so I couldn't say for sure, but even if it was yours there's no need for you to justify your work to me. I am aware my reaction to many things Supernatural is idiosyncratic (I've been joking that I love all the things most of the fandom seems to be pissed off about) and, honestly, different stroke for different folks is probably very applicable here: my interpretation and enjoyment can be off over in this corner and your interpretation and enjoyment can be over there and don't have to interfere with each other, because multiple interpretations are valid.

I apologize if my entry here bothered you; I would note that it is totally about my reaction and my wants as a reader and less about the author, whether that was you or someone else. There's a reason I didn't leave it as feedback on the story itself--complaining to the author that 'omg you don't love Ruby as much as I do!' would have been, uh, trolly, wanky, and kind of irrelevant.

My problems with Ruby were mostly actress-related. Blonde Ruby's actress wasn't that great, and I didn't appreciate her until Brunette Ruby's actress took over and sucked out loud. Maybe part of it is that you've come into the series knowing from the beginning that Ruby does the classic demon thing. As it ran, especially in third season, her loyalties were more up in the air.

By fifth season, I look back and say that of course she was treacherous. She was female, and more and more in SPN's 'verse it seems that a woman is either a victim or a bitch, a madonna or a whore.

You know I enjoy Castiel, but I feel the boys need to know how much of the Apocalypse was Castiel's fault. The angel got off scott free.

I've sort of given up hope that the show will ever address how Castiel was clearly paralleled with Ruby and how he's just as much at fault for causing the apocalypse as she is (especially since they finally mentioned his betrayal of Anna, and then killed her off, when again, her crazycakes in that episode can be laid at his door). It doesn't surprise me at all that even in a story that's trying to fix the Sam/Dean issues in S4 would excuse Castiel and yet leave Ruby's role unchanged (I mean, I think Ruby, in the end, was AWESOME, because she's the only one who actually did what she set out to do, and she did it ridiculously well).

Part of the reason I hate Castiel as much as I do is because of this sort of double standard that not only exists on the show, but in the fandom.

Yeah I totally came into this bass-ackwards, watching season 4 as my primary starting point. Ironically I started watching it for Cas, who I had determined I would probably like based on fanfic and a handful of s5 eps. And I still like Cas, I even think it's hilarious when he's an angelic bastard, I just think he shouldn't get narrative redemption without a damn sight more honesty.

But so yeah. I came into season 4 not knowing of the existence of Ruby. I had zero expectations about her and liked her a lot. Then when I watched her appearances in season 3 I sort of felt that by comparison, she'd spent season 3 with her thumb up her butt, not doing anything.

I did think Ruby's character had some excellent potential for redemption themes, and I adore redemption themes.

Alas, it was not to be.

(I mean, I think Ruby, in the end, was AWESOME, because she's the only one who actually did what she set out to do, and she did it ridiculously well).

That reminds me of something

grey_bard said something to me the other night about how as much as she liked Ruby, she was glad the show didn't chicken out of killing her, that it was right that she went out with a bang. Though it would have been nice if they'd left a little ambiguity on that.

Alas, it was not to be.

But isn't that what fanfiction's for?

Clearly I should write my own, to get what I want out of it. *G*

Why, yes. Yes, you should. *g*

::lacks a Ruby icon::

Agreed.

Speaking as someone who watched season 3 as it aired, it seemed that she spent season 3 trying to get the Winchesters over some of their cautiousness toward her. By season 4 she had her in with Sam and could get to work.

And to be clear, it was in the context that they should *all* go out with such a bang. I am totally of the opinion that the first season should have ended with them killing John etc. I wish they hadn't a) gone to such an unambiguous mustache-twirling Hail Satan! place with Ruby and b) hadn't (mostly) unambiguously offer her (but Castiel died at the same time and came back, so ...).

(eta: typo fix)

Edited 2010-02-28 07:11 (UTC)

You know I love Ruby, and you know I am right there with you to call out sexism, but... For all that they're clearly parallel, the way the show wrote them, they're not morally equivalent. Castiel genuinely (wrong as he might have been) thought he was benefiting everyone, including humanity, and when he saw he was wrong, turned aside. Whereas Ruby was basically hail Satan, screw you, world. The show should totally get the blame for that, but I don't know that it's fair to blame ficcers who don't want to give a villain who intentionally brought hell on Earth for kicks a happy ending. Not that you shouldn't give her one! Or make her less unambiguously evil while still complicated and awesome, because you know I am all for that.

Edited to fix typo.

Edited 2010-02-28 07:09 (UTC)

Gah

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