research notes--FMA alternate history--marriage

[jmtorres]

Does anyone know if Hughes ever flashes his and Gracia's wedding pics? I would dearly love to know if she wore a white dress. White dresses for weddings were popularized by Queen Victoria's wedding to Prince Albert; before then, people tended to buy a dress they could use as a fancy/formal evening gown later on. And does the world of FMA have a Queen Victoria? And would she have worn white?

ETA: Does anyone know what hand Hughes and Gracia wear their rings on? Germany's one of those weird countries where you wear it on the right hand, not the left; I wonder if Amestris is the same./ETA ETA2: The answer to that seems to be left hand, but I'm wondering if he didn't wear it when he was on duty, because the thing is so damn tricky to find./ETA2 ETA4: Heh. By complete and total accident (ie, changing my google prefs in the middle of image-searching Gracia), I discovered that "moderate safe search" blocks ponderosa121's site. Even though the Gracia pic she's done is not remotely risqué. But you know. We might find other things of nekkidity on her site. *snicker*/ETA4 ETA5: OMG, this is the scariest thing ever. BTW, why is Scar's brother called Bruce?/ETA5

ETA3: A lot of places have laws now that marriages have to be conducted in a public forum. (Australia is one that doesn't.) *ponder* /ETA3

Before about the 1540s, pretty much all marriages were common-law marriages. Apparently a lot of them did occur in churches out of expectations of family, but it was not required. Hell, witnesses weren't required. Specific vows weren't required. Marriage license, not required. You and your sweetie just agreed you were married, possibly with your parents' consent if you were like, 14.

In the mid-1500s, the church took an interest. Roman Catholic church started demanding its members have church weddings (not sure of the date on this one) and in England, there was a law passed that you had to be married by the CoE for it to be legal (unless you were a Quaker or a Jew).

But in Amestris... in Amestris... *taps lip* If the point of split is around 1500, and religion in Europe pretty much died, would the church have been in any position to demand... anything? I really wish I knew at what point Christianity kicked it, because it might be they had a last gasp and "OMG DO THIS" before they got squashed, and some pseudoreligous traditions may hang on in Amestris.

Even more interesting, the state interest in marriage really comes secondarily to the church interest, historically. The CoE thing was mid-1500s, but England didn't demand people get civil marriage licenses until 17something (in reaction to Fleet marriages--thousands of people getting married in Fleet Prison). Does Amestris give a damn about who marries who? Do you have to register with the state? Is there a state ceremony or certificate-signing or something? Does a civil servant have to preside? Can a military officer do it?

Traditions which are old enough to precede the split, and might still exist in Amestris:
--carrying wife over the threshold (Plutarch was analyzing the origins of this in the first century AD, and the conclusions are kind of icky; stuff like, reenactment of the Rape of the Sabines, or the woman only gives up her virginity when dragged into the house by her husband, or as a symbol of such fidelity that she enters the house carried by him and will only leave the house the same way)
--bachelor party (thought to originate with bachelor dinner in ancient Sparta)
--honeymoon (though possibly not as a "go someplace nice," just as a general period of romanticism)
--wedding cake (old, old tradition, involving cutting it with a sword)

Traditions probably not present that would have to have evolved parallel-ly in Amestris:
--bridal registry: The concept of a bridal registry was first instituted by Chicago-founded department store Marshall Fields in 1924, and has since been turned into a well-known experience of many large stores. (Drat, there goes the china patterns joke)
--that whole wearing white thing

Would love to hear further thoughts on this. *waves at flist*

Comments

[ponderosa121.livejournal.com]

Fear my porn!

There are no wedding pics that I know of. I think the only photo we see with Hughes and Gracia is the one of the three on the little table when Winry visits that has Gracia carrying Alicia.

As far as bridal registry and wearing white, I'd say both could be easily viable. Department stores wanting to make money is universal; it's not hard to make the leap that someone could've come up with the same or similar notion in Amestria and at an earlier point in time. And if one wants to go with the whole "death and taxes" thing, taxes could be what keeps the state's interest in marriage as well as putting restrictions on the types of marriages allowed.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Department stores wanting to make money is universal; it's not hard to make the leap that someone could've come up with the same or similar notion in Amestria and at an earlier point in time.

This, yes; the wearing white thing, I'm still toying with. (Never mind that I've already written both the bride and groom wearing white at their wedding at least once... the whole story is under revision! Really!)

And if one wants to go with the whole "death and taxes" thing, taxes could be what keeps the state's interest in marriage as well as putting restrictions on the types of marriages allowed.

Hm. If I think of it as, what is the Amestrian social attitude, or the aims of the Amestrian government...

The Amestrian government is restrictive; it does not seek to make people happy. In fact, in some cases, it actively seeks to make people unhappy, to promote the kind of desperation that would lead people to create the Philosopher's Stone. While I imagine they probably don't take the Crowley approach to making people miserable (traffic! cell phones! annoying internet memes!), it's certainly not in their interest to make marriage all free and happy.

And if their goals include population growth so they have lots of wee soldiers to throw into war, that would be a great excuse for m/f marriage only.

[ponderosa121.livejournal.com]

I use it again, just for you. ...well, and it's also my FMA Thinking About Things icon.

The universe is flexible enough that I can easily go either way on the wearing white and not bat an eye.

While I imagine they probably don't take the Crowley approach to making people miserable...

Ha!

...you know, that right there would be some cracked out AU fun. I'm just saying.

And if their goals include population growth so they have lots of wee soldiers to throw into war, that would be a great excuse for m/f marriage only.

That's just makes me squirm because it's all too viable.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

...you know, that right there would be some cracked out AU fun. I'm just saying.

Oh, but what would they do with themselves?

Aziraphale: ...So the new Word is, the Ishbalans are God's chosen people.
Crowley: Really? I thought He was punshing them for something or other.
Aziraphale: No, She loves them!
Crowley: ...She?
Aziraphale: What?
Crowley: You people. Changing the Text to fit your needs.
Aziraphale: Hmph.

That's just makes me squirm because it's all too viable.

Yep. Generally considered to be part of the reasoning behind the no-contraceptives have two dozen children approach--to send them overseas for colonization, and to send them to war in the Crusades.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

P.S. I heart that icon.

[kintail.livejournal.com]

I love reading your researchy-thinky posts like this, even when I don't have much to add because when I do come up with a thought, I see you've already come up with it too.

I would think that the apparent difference in women's rights -- women in the military, running their own businesses, etc, presented as "not a new or strange thing" -- would affect laws concerning marriage, but I am too brain-fogged to work out a thorough theory of how.

Plus, control by what is or isn't written down (or what records get destroyed -- but they existed to *be* destroyed) seems to be an important theme.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

I would think that the apparent difference in women's rights -- women in the military, running their own businesses, etc, presented as "not a new or strange thing" -- would affect laws concerning marriage, but I am too brain-fogged to work out a thorough theory of how.

Possibly that "love, honor, and obey" line goes out the window? The standardized state vows could be the same for both partners, with no references to servitude or providing or stuff.

OTOH no one bats an eyelash at Gracia being a housewife, either. I think they're socially close to us in many ways, closer than to 1910s society, definitely. Yes, women can do this that and the other, but they can also just get married and have kids. (I wonder if Gracia comes from a "traditional" family? Or if she had some job/vocation that she gave up, voluntarily or practically or necessarily, when she married/spawned?)

Plus, control by what is or isn't written down (or what records get destroyed -- but they existed to *be* destroyed) seems to be an important theme.

*nodding* A state like Amestris would be all up in people's business. Makes sense.

[kintail.livejournal.com]

Right -- it's not complete equality in practice, men still outnumber women by a lot in the military, and being a housewife seems equality as acceptable... I wonder if that's the Japanese-target-audience influence, though: what little I know suggests that even as it becomes more acceptable for Japanese women to have a career, they're still expected to give it all up when they marry and have children if at all possible.

Women having their own businesses and careers would affect the way that property and inheritance laws are tangled in with marriage laws, I'd expect. I wonder if they have legal divorce, and what the social attitudes about it would be?

[kintail.livejournal.com]

Wow, seem me go all incoherent typo there. Being a housewife seems equally as acceptable, even. Which is still an incomplete thought, because there's the whole thing about equality shouldn't make choosing to be a housewife a bad thing as long as it's a choice, and so on, but my brain is going to mush.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

because there's the whole thing about equality shouldn't make choosing to be a housewife a bad thing as long as it's a choice, and so on, but my brain is going to mush.

Heh. I know what you mean--I'm the one who asked the question, "Does Hughes get paternity leave?"

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

men still outnumber women by a lot in the military

And, more significantly I think, name me one female State Alchemist...

Women having their own businesses and careers would affect the way that property and inheritance laws are tangled in with marriage laws, I'd expect. I wonder if they have legal divorce, and what the social attitudes about it would be?

I have this theory that Pinako, the Leopard of Rizenbul, never married. Because she was free-spirited and wasn't getting tied to some man and was perfectly capable of running her own business and working her craft. (And because Grandpa Rockbell gets no mention at all.)

Which is not directly related, but... yeah. Hmm.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

>>Leopardess. Looks like we're both up for the typoing!

[la-reine-lionne.livejournal.com]

It looks like you're right on with the wedding rings. Maes seems to wear his at home, but not at work. There were other clear shots of his hands in several episode. Even in the credits you have a good shot of his left hand. Speaking of credits; in the later opening credits, where Roy is sitting looking gloomy at his desk there's picture of him and Maes on the desk.

BTW, you've really gotten me hooked on your threesome. I had commented to someone else earlier about how much I'd like to see this grouping and voila! I found your site. :) I'd love to see more. The three of them are just so adorable together. Do you ever go beyond the fluffiness and do lemons? That'd be nice. Regardless, I can't wait to see more fics for this little series!

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

I am actually working on their first time together, which is, um, ridiculously lemony. So lemony I had to work out the schedule of sex acts to make sure I didn't repeat myself. *headdesk*

Maes seems to wear his at home, but not at work.

This is probably regulation--the only time I've seen FMA soldiers wear jewelry is when they've set it with red stone (or Hawkeye's earrings, which is just a source of buh? to me, because she wears them even in *drag*).

*checks on the only other married soldier she can thinking of* Bradley doesn't seem to wear a ring even off-duty. Foolish human customs!

[la-reine-lionne.livejournal.com]

General Haruko wears his in "The Man With the Mechanical Arm" You get a good shot of it when the mercenaries first enter Haruko's train car. It's one of the episodes I went back and checked because it's where Maes shows up for the first time. I just love his conversation with Roy at the beginning. It shows how much of goofball Maes can be. I also like the scene were he catches Ed on the train.

Well... I look forward to your next chapter. Ooo it sounds good! I totally sympathize with you. I've written one lemon. Fortunatly just with 2 guys, so it was relatively easy.. save for watching all the pronouns. It's easy to over use he/ him/ his and then you loos track of who's doing what to whom.

Can't wait for the lemony goodness.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Huh. Is Hakuro in uniform then? He was supposed to be on vacation with his family, right, he just goes on vacation with armed guard?

Can't wait for the lemony goodness.

Heh.

The thing I'm posting today is all fluff.

*is terrible*