jmtorres | Troll?

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A friend of mine said something to me about wanting to start up conversation on Darius--but wanting to do it offlist, primarily on lj's (which I probably would have done anyway, since I've almost totally withdrawn from list culture) because she didn't want Jeylan muddying the waters. I hope my friend will forgive me for using that comment as a jumping off point for talking about Jeylan, because a) it's not really that she said it that bugs me, it's the prevalence of the opinion in the fandom and b) I'm still going to write about Darius :)

A little background, for people who don't know what the hell I'm talking about (with the note that the only HL list I'm on is ROG-L, and Jeylan has apparently made waves elsewhere too): Jeylan is an extremely opinionated Highlander newbie. (She would probably contest the description "newbie"; in fact I think she recently bitched about still being moderated two months after joining the list. Be that as it may, Highlander fandom has been around for years and years and years--something like 17 or 18, if you count from the first movie? I've been here six months, and I am still a newbie.) She very strongly believes in a complex, multi-faceted, devious Methos (Methos the Manipulator), and very strongly objects to any static representation of him (Just A Guy). She refuses to contemplate the validity of any other viewpoint, would never agree to disagree, and calls it childish when people get tired of arguing with her and change the subject. She insults everyone--she recently made a post that was supposedly intended to be an offlist message (how many people believed that?) in which she condemned 99% of HL fandom as "unilevel sheeple," incapable of understanding Methos or doing anything other than following BNFs. She's an agitator. Some have called her a troll.

I can understand why my friend would want to keep Jeylan out of the discussion she's starting. Jeylan makes people angry, which upsets otherwise relatively peaceful communities. Jeylan is like a dog with a bone when she gets on something; she just won't let go. (It reminds me of something I read about Freud once. Freudian theory is commonly known--if currently not really commonly accepted in pyschiatric circles--not so much because he was right, which is questionable, as because he outlived all his contemporaries and kept publishing after they were dead.) However, Jeylan makes people think and defend their own opinions. If she would limit herself to questioning, rather than attacking, she would probably strengthen fandom.

Here is where I think Jeylan is wrong: She shows no respect for anyone or anyone else's opinions. She seems to think everyone should recognize her opinions as truth, and discard their own, when the very unbending rigidity of her conviction instead incites others to dismiss everything she says. She needs to learn that fannish discussion is not a competition, and more people would be interested in her viewpoints if she were more diplomatic about stating them.

Here is where I think that the segment of fandom who seeks to exclude her is wrong: Ignoring her on a personal level because it's the easiest way to deal with your own frustration is reasonable enough. Ignoring her as a group in an organized fashion amounts to discrimination.

Here is what I have to say about Methos, even though that is practically tangential to discussion of Jeylan at this point: My personal Methos is completely schizophrenic. I have one Methos making googly eyes at Tessa Noel, one who practices magic, one who plays games with Connor, one who would kill Mac and anyone else who got in his way if he found it necessary, one who has sex with Richie when they've taken quickenings because it's convenient, but still manages to have the same amount of respect for Richie in the morning as he did the night before, one who's won the prize but would conspire to lose it, one who talks about his past all the time and regrets it deeply, one who is doing his damnedest to convince Mac he is not Methos at all. These are not all the same character. These are different potential interpretations of a character. One is ruthless; one is kind; one is sentimental; one is amnesiac; one is horny; one is romantic; one is childish; one is mature. I believe that multiple interpretations of Methos are possible. I will buy into anything for the length of a story. It boggles my mind that anyone should hold so fast to one interpretation of Methos that they would disregard any other.

Here is how I participate in list culture: I take digests. If I'm going to respond to something, it has to be pretty damn important to me, because it's a pain in the butt to reply to an individual post. I am several hours behind the main conflict, because by the time I get the digest, it's old news. I wish more people participated in lists in this fashion, because I think it would slow down fights and probably bring some to a grinding halt.

I am willing to discuss anything in this post. If you disagree with me and give me a reason, I will probably even concede that I can see your point of view.

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Here is where I think that the segment of fandom who seeks to exclude her is wrong: Ignoring her on a personal level because it's the easiest way to deal with your own frustration is reasonable enough. Ignoring her as a group in an organized fashion amounts to discrimination.

I understand your feelings about this because I used to feel the same way. You know, give her a chance, etc., but I've come to understand that, after it's all said and done, the only way to deal with a person like Jeylan (self-important, verbose, antagonistic, netiquette-lacking, zero-charismatic, etc.) is to ignore her. At the beginning, yes, she did revive discussion and force people to articulate their opinions, and that was fine. But! She didn't leave it at that. She went on to belittle those people (sheeple) and their opinions (unilevel), and then screamed "discrimination!" in a faux private note that "accidentally" ended up on a list. She went on moderated status on a list, obtained another email address, joined and then gloated *on the list* that she had bypassed moderation. She antagonizes the people who actually deign to answer her with ad hominem attacks. In short, she has broken nearly every rule of netiquette that there is. The only power we have in that situation is to ignore/ostracize because that person's input and value to fandom is greatly reduced when, in the middle of her valuable insights, she is throwing sands into the gears of that society.

You know, I know and probably *she* knows that we are not "sheeple," and she has failed, really, to effect any sort of lasting or deep discussion because of her own societal inadequacies, and that's sad.

And? Discrimination isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

She went on moderated status on a list, obtained another email address, joined and then gloated *on the list* that she had bypassed moderation. She antagonizes the people who actually deign to answer her with ad hominem attacks.

The first is something I didn't know, and if the second is something she did on ROG-L, I must have skimmed over it. Which I've had a tendency to do with a lot of her posts.

she has failed, really, to effect any sort of lasting or deep discussion because of her own societal inadequacies, and that's sad.

I agree. I think I mostly feel pity for her.

Coming in from the outside, I would have no problems whatsoever banning or otherwise booting someone like that. I moderate a list at the moment, and I've done it -- twice. And only twice. The list is almost ten years old now, and I've only had to do it twice.

People like that RUIN spaces. They drive off thoughtful people, prevent deep conversation from happening, and make such irritants out of themselves that a space can be rendered completely worthless for the participants. I see absolutely no reason to crucify myself on some abstract notion of "censorship" by keeping a space enjoyable for its participants.

It doesn't really matter if she could be good for the fandom or if she might make people think. The fact remains -- she doesn't. QED. A mailing list or other fannish community is a private space, like inviting people into your living room to have a conversation and talk over things. You are not required by the first amendment to let obnoxious, thoughtless people who exist to destroy meaningful conversation off the streets and into your living room. If someone like that shoves themselves into the space, you are entirely within your rights to throw them out.

In my experience as a listmod, the other people on the list are incredibly grateful for a moderator to actually exercise the authority they have thoughtfully and in their best interest by booting someone like that. When moderators refuse to step up to the plate in situations like this, lists fall apart, cliques form, backstabbing starts in, meaningless arguments flare up, and everyone gets stressed out. As a moderator, I have a responsibility to the people on my list to, on some level, take care of the space for them. When a good list comes apart, loses valuable participants, or degenerates into places where no one feels like opening their mouths because the moderator would not prevent it, that becomes the moderator's responsibility. I kicked those two shit-stirrers off, then opened the floor to see what everyone thought so that I see how the decision was interpreted and find out what everyone thought.

And people were delighted that I'd used my ability to kick them off in their best interest. They were relieved, and had been waiting for me to do it.

I know you aren't a moderator, and that you don't have the power to kick someone off. But a list is not the United States government. A list doesn't put people in jail. A list is a conversation taking part in a semi-private space for the enjoyment and benefit of everyone. When some loud, boorish person who just wants to stir up shit intrudes into that private space, they can hardly be surprised when they are asked to leave. And it doesn't matter that they could be useful, or could be beneficial, if only they had a total and complete personality transplant. They aren't. I'm sure that many a criminal in jail could be useful if only they would stop stealing things. But you don't let them mix with polite company based on a could.

It sounds to me as if this person is ruining the spaces she's allowed into. She should either be banned or the spaces simply opened up like Usenet so that their legions of 15 year old fanboys have their fair shot at ruining it, too.

A mailing list or other fannish community is a private space, like inviting people into your living room to have a conversation and talk over things.

Hmm. This didn't occur to me, because ROG-L is a large and cram-packed living room. It has never felt private or intimate to me. I just checked, and it's also open membership. One does have to join to post or view messages... but I suppose that the metaphorical equivalent is that the front door has been left open to passersby, who may come in as they like. Technically, fifteen-year-old fanboys, too, if they are smart enough not to put their real age on their yahoo profiles (though I would, of course, never encourage or endorse such a deception).

I am not sure if I agree with this point or not.

As a moderator, I have a responsibility to the people on my list to, on some level, take care of the space for them.

I have never moderated a big list and so you're talking about something outside my realm of experience. I guess that as a member, what I hopes is that my mods will make their decisions rationally rather than emotionally. As long as I believe that to be the case, and I generally believe it in absence of evidence to the contrary, I respect moderators' decisions for their lists. But I'm seeing a lot of people who aren't moderators being exclusionary on what appears to me to be a purely emotional basis, and that bothers me somewhat. It's probably the "appears to me" I should check into--I should ask them their reasons.

Everyone who has responded here so far has given me very eloquent reasons backing up their opinions. And I respect that. (Not to mention am somewhat intimidated by it. The minute I realized the average length of the comments was about eight inches, I went, "Oh, God, they're all smarter than me!" Am not a size queen *grin*)

I guess that as a member, what I hopes is that my mods will make their decisions rationally rather than emotionally. ... But I'm seeing a lot of people who aren't moderators being exclusionary on what appears to me to be a purely emotional basis ...

I guess I'm not sure what's wrong with at least taking emotions into account. People congregate in lists to enjoy themselves as well as exchange ideas, and the exchange itself can be pleasurable. If someone is doing emotional damage, that must be taken into account. It's possible -- and even vitally important -- to, rationally and reasonably, take emotional considerations into account. Emotions, like everything else, are data. They must be taken into consideration.

I agree that a mod should take emotions of members into account. But that's different from saying, "Let's ban this bitch because she pisses me the hell off." Do you see the distinction?

Ah -- yes. Totally. Decisions like this always have to be made with the benefit of the list as a structure in mind, definitely.

Here is where I think Jeylan is wrong: She shows no respect for anyone or anyone else's opinions. She seems to think everyone should recognize her opinions as truth, and discard their own, when the very unbending rigidity of her conviction instead incites others to dismiss everything she says. She needs to learn that fannish discussion is not a competition, and more people would be interested in her viewpoints if she were more diplomatic about stating them.

And here is how she found herself moderated for the entire time of her membership of ODM. She never never got past this behaviour. And, as has already been pointed out, this kind of shit is an absolute anathema to list culture. It's all very well to give people a chance, but I'm not Buddha and my patience is not infinite.

So, now there are two HL lists where she's not welcome. And that probably seems harsh to people who've never moderated a 'big list' but there have to be limits and consequences to breaches of the rules in list culture otherwise it all falls apart. Really fast.

Right - her inability to respect others, and her lack of insight into her own behavior make her too toxic. I would've been happy to keep her on CE under moderation, hoping she'd learn - but instead she joined under another address and shrieked about being moderated (which got her banned from CE). I'm guessing she's learned not to do this, since I haven't heard of her trying it on any other lists since - though maybe she's only learned that lesson in HL fandom.

Jeylan has a documented inability to learn, though; she's apparently been acting like this for years in XF fandom. But according to her, the problem is everyone else, not her. I'm sorry, but if you can alienate most of a fandom within a month, the problem isn't them, it's you.

I'm a reasonably tolerant listadmin, and have let some fairly inflammatory people hang around for a long time (either on moderation if they're really problematic, or not). I like being challenged and made to think, and I'm reluctant to shut people I disagree with down for fear of seeming censorious. Jeylan, though, crossed all kinds of lines, repeatedly, and the end-run around moderation was the last. fucking. straw.

And that was classic wankiness, that farewell post from CE. She couldn't have done any better if she'd studied at the knee of the wank-masters of old. It had everything. I think I have it saved on my hard drive for posterity (and amusement's) sake.

What a shame we won't be getting one on ODM *sighs theatrically*....

I'm curious, but I should probably refrain from asking about it. I could fill in the blanks myself. Let me guess--"I have been persecuted by the mods, the list members are philosophically stuck in the stone age and ganged up on me to burn me at the stake for having new ideas, and it's all to much to take!" About right?

Sure, if you add in a little wank about the lurkers supporting her in email, starting a new list, and how we'd all be really sorry when she was gone. I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for any of that to be true.

Do these trolls go to school somewhere to learn this shit? Trollwarts? They all end up sounding the same.

It's a correspondance course.

Jeylan has a documented inability to learn, though; she's apparently been acting like this for years in XF fandom.

This is also something I didn't know; the more I hear, the less I like.

run around moderation was the last. fucking. straw.

Agreed. Respect the mods.

Currently, she's on moderated status on the ROG-L -- for the second time. One more strike and she's gone for good. And you've hit it perfectly. It's not because she's a troll, or because she pisses people off. It's her total lack of respect, and her inability to agree to disagree.

Thank God she's moderated again; I was getting seriously twitchy for a bit there after she called me a bully. I mean, what? Just. What?

Agreeing to disagree is a big part of being a good list member. I mean, I have some substantial disagreements with some people about Methos, but so? We can be peaceful about it. But Jeylan can't; she can't be quiet or let it go *ever*. She has to fight about it constantly, and if you ignore her she takes it as capitulation, and she resorts to ad hominem attacks if you *don't* ignore her. Some people, I swear....

Just between you, me, and anyone else in HL fandom who happens to wander by -- as far as I'm concerned, you and MacG can have her head on a used paper plate any time you want it.

How ironic. This is just the sort of emotionally charged antipathy I was arguing against.

It's so incredibly easy to stand outside and judge. Honey, no offense, but when you're the one sinned against, let's have this conversation again.

You have a perfect right to your opinion. I just find it ironic that you should choose to express it here.

Drive-by comment here, and apologies for spamming

jmtorres for it.

Jeylan has a documented inability to learn, though; she's apparently been acting like this for years in XF fandom.

Not years, thank goodness. She came and went in about a year. Kicked up a fuss because her characterization of Mulder (as a HERO, goddammit) and Scully (as a whiny bitch) weren't shared by all the other writers in the fandom, and therefore everyone else was a closed-minded Sheep. She abused moderators, listmods, and listmembers everywhere she went, and bounced from the het lists to the slash lists and then out of the fandom entirely, self-righteously deaf all the way. Sound familiar?

Anyway, see this here, particularly the endnotes. That's Jeylan's opinion of anyone she doesn't agree with.

To wit: I must also point out that this story would
not exist in its current, fragmentary form [...] were it not for
certain "prom queens", Scullyists, and minions within ficdom who
want to have things their own way, or no way. Let them have it.

They've driven away other good writers before me. (Ever wonder
why your favorite writer stopped writing? The answer might just
have something to do with politics.) And they will drive away
more in the future -- presuming that there is a future, and that
they don't simply find themselves ruling over a house of ashes.
(This is a *bad* time to antagonize new talent.)

(If that link doesn't work, go to www.gossamer.org, Author Search, Jeylan, The Edge, a Series of Vignettes, and see the End Notes)

She's not missed, and I don't envy you her company.

nd that probably seems harsh to people who've never moderated a 'big list' there have to be limits and consequences to breaches of the rules in list culture otherwise it all falls apart. Really fast.

I believe this. As I said to

cortese, In Mod I Trust.

I probably don't have as much in-depth knowledge of Methos as you do; but I have developed my own opinion of him.

Do you not think that it is possible he has just evolved? Over the centuries, he has had a chance to grow and adapt. (become more civilized?) He still has that touch of danger, self-preservation instinct; but he may have mellowed with age? Become nicer just by having lived and experienced so much more.

I've read that he had a "light" quickening, which is the opposite of McCloud's "dark" quickening. Although I'm not buying into that concept. I just think he has matured and aged. (Mentally and emotionally)

Just curious,

I probably don't have as much in-depth knowledge of Methos as you do; but I have developed my own opinion of him.

If you've watched all the episodes, you have as much knowledge as I do.

Do you not think that it is possible he has just evolved? Over the centuries, he has had a chance to grow and adapt. (become more civilized?) He still has that touch of danger, self-preservation instinct; but he may have mellowed with age? Become nicer just by having lived and experienced so much more.

Yes, I believe that's possible. My point is that there isn't a single valid interpretation to that process, wherein he did xyz and became This Sort Of Man. There are multiple possible journeys he could have made and multiple possible current forms. In one version of him, I may write him as someone on whom the changes of civilization are cosmetic, intended to lull his prey into a false sense of security: he has learned much cunning, but little compassion. In another version of him, I may write that he has changed so much, become so much more human than he was in his Death days, that he would prefer to deny that history is part of him. And I seem to have a full spectrum of Methoses in between.

I've read that he had a "light" quickening, which is the opposite of McCloud's "dark" quickening. Although I'm not buying into that concept. I just think he has matured and aged. (Mentally and emotionally)

You'd be thinking of Darius, not Methos. Canon never told us of any light quickening Methos underwent.

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