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Which Horseman, again?
I've been told that HL fans have sorted out the four horsemen thus--Methos, Death; Kronos, Pestilence; Caspian, Famine; Silas, War. I tried to argue the identity of Death, because I think it's unclear in canon, but ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
blueraccoon responded with, "But Methos is Death!"
"Comes a Horseman" has a fair amount of hearsay and circumstantial evidence for Kronos being Death:
When Joe asks which Horseman they're looking for, Cassandra--who at that point hasn't met Methos, and is only looking for Kronos--says, "Death."
In Macleod's flashback to 1867, Kronos tosses aside both their swords, intending to kill Mac with a scythe--because he says it's "traditional."
When Methos asks Kronos if he's going to kill him, Kronos replies, "It's what I do best." Kronos's assessment of what Methos does best is survive--not a terribly apocalyptic trait at all (which probably should have been Kronos's tip-off that Methos wasn't gonna play).
Some story I read mentioned Methos being the only one of the four to ride a white horse (Death on a Pale Horse) but this is apocryphal. In fact, both Methos and Kronos rode pale horses (though neither of them are white--ever hear the joke, "What color was George Washington's white horse? Gray"? Horses only come in white if they're albino), though Caspian and Silas rode darker steeds.
The major chunk of "Comes a Horseman" that implies Methos was Death is his rant at Macleod, where he does say, "Do you know who I was? I was Death. Death--death on a horse."
Now, I know I'm a little early in my Highlander career to already be a Methos redemptionista, but let's consider the source. Methos is trying to rile Macleod into going away and leaving him alone, so he doesn't have to kill him, is what I got out of the scene. He's telling Macleod a story--you hear it when he asks, every few sentences, "Is that what you want to hear?" I wouldn't put it past him to have changed some of the details for effect, because, I mean, suppose he was really Famine. "Do you know who I was? Famine! Famine--famine on a horse!" It doesn't quite have the same ring, does it? For Methos's rhetorical purpose, driving Macleod away, "Death" is much more effective.
It also allows Methos to distance himself from the story in his own head, because, as Macleod guessed, he is running away from this. He raped and murdered alongside Kronos, and maybe he even enjoyed it at the time, but he regrets it now, and he doesn't want to own up to it yet. Using Kronos's name in this tale he's spinning, playing the part of Kronos, allows Methos to gloss over how he, himself feels about what he did as a Horseman.
"Revelations 6:8" puts some other stuff out there as to which Horseman is which; fans apparently decided Kronos was Pestilence because of the virus, while Caspian is Famine because of eating the roach and the rat. I dunno. I managed to convince myself Kronos was really Death before I actually saw "Revelations 6:8" on the basis of "Comes a Horseman" (mock me verily, I watched them about an hour apart) but yeah. This is what I think. *shrug*
blueraccoon responded with, "But Methos is Death!""Comes a Horseman" has a fair amount of hearsay and circumstantial evidence for Kronos being Death:
When Joe asks which Horseman they're looking for, Cassandra--who at that point hasn't met Methos, and is only looking for Kronos--says, "Death."
In Macleod's flashback to 1867, Kronos tosses aside both their swords, intending to kill Mac with a scythe--because he says it's "traditional."
When Methos asks Kronos if he's going to kill him, Kronos replies, "It's what I do best." Kronos's assessment of what Methos does best is survive--not a terribly apocalyptic trait at all (which probably should have been Kronos's tip-off that Methos wasn't gonna play).
Some story I read mentioned Methos being the only one of the four to ride a white horse (Death on a Pale Horse) but this is apocryphal. In fact, both Methos and Kronos rode pale horses (though neither of them are white--ever hear the joke, "What color was George Washington's white horse? Gray"? Horses only come in white if they're albino), though Caspian and Silas rode darker steeds.
The major chunk of "Comes a Horseman" that implies Methos was Death is his rant at Macleod, where he does say, "Do you know who I was? I was Death. Death--death on a horse."
Now, I know I'm a little early in my Highlander career to already be a Methos redemptionista, but let's consider the source. Methos is trying to rile Macleod into going away and leaving him alone, so he doesn't have to kill him, is what I got out of the scene. He's telling Macleod a story--you hear it when he asks, every few sentences, "Is that what you want to hear?" I wouldn't put it past him to have changed some of the details for effect, because, I mean, suppose he was really Famine. "Do you know who I was? Famine! Famine--famine on a horse!" It doesn't quite have the same ring, does it? For Methos's rhetorical purpose, driving Macleod away, "Death" is much more effective.
It also allows Methos to distance himself from the story in his own head, because, as Macleod guessed, he is running away from this. He raped and murdered alongside Kronos, and maybe he even enjoyed it at the time, but he regrets it now, and he doesn't want to own up to it yet. Using Kronos's name in this tale he's spinning, playing the part of Kronos, allows Methos to gloss over how he, himself feels about what he did as a Horseman.
"Revelations 6:8" puts some other stuff out there as to which Horseman is which; fans apparently decided Kronos was Pestilence because of the virus, while Caspian is Famine because of eating the roach and the rat. I dunno. I managed to convince myself Kronos was really Death before I actually saw "Revelations 6:8" on the basis of "Comes a Horseman" (mock me verily, I watched them about an hour apart) but yeah. This is what I think. *shrug*
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I've heard the same breakdown of who was who, but the whole things seems off to me -- not because of personalities, but because of the timeline.
M and the horsemen rode during the bronze age, which was 3200-1200 bce. (Was an approximate date ever established in the episode? -- I figure an approximate start period of about 4500-5000 years ago, with the assumption it was past Methos' first "youth" (few hundred years), but not by much; then, as he said, they rode for a thousand years.)
But iirc, the biblical 4 horsemen appeared to Paul in a dream in the first century ce -- with no preexisting mythologic or historic reference (that I know of).
So personally I've always doubted there was any relationship whatsoever between the horsemen that terrorised europe and the bibical horsemen, other than they both were 4 and both rode horses ;)
What, me a geek?
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And I always theough of Methos as Death, Kronos as War, Caspian as Famine, and Silas as Pestilence.
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I mean, no, not that I feel the need to convince anybody I'm right, just... dunno.
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And yet, oddly, when Joe says, "The Horsemen? the Biblical Horsemen? War, Famine, Pestilence, etc?" Cassandra goes, Yeah.
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But iirc, the biblical 4 horsemen appeared to Paul in a dream in the first century ce -- with no preexisting mythologic or historic reference (that I know of).
I dunno, I thought that pretty much everything in Christianity was borrowed from somewhere else. I'd have to research to see where the horsemen might have come from.
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IIRC, the new testament was written in bits and pieces over the first couple hundred years ce, and severely editted by the ... council of nicea? ...in the 4th century or so to remove a lot of references to self determination, women in power, etc., as the church tried to consolidate its power and make people dependent on the priesthood for their connection to god, rather than being able to deal with him directly.
It's been all of 20 years or so since I read up on that sort of thing, though, so I may be off.
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I collected different translations of Revelation 6:2-8 for a while, and I'd like to throw out that some translate Death as Plague -- e.g. something like the Black Death, if not actually it. I've also read that Death's horse is pale green, although that understandably does not make it into many translations; there are also odd parallels with Revelation 19:11-16, which is usually said to refer to Jesus, iirc. Revelation is a strange book. Regardless, both Death and Pestilence ride pale horses, so that seems to narrow down the options to Methos and Kronos.
Er, yes, I was a teensy bit obsessed with the Horsemen.
New Revised Standard Version
I looked, and there was a white horse! Its rider had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering and to conquer.
When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature call out, "Come!"* And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another; and he was given a great sword.
When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature call out, "Come!" I looked, and there was a black horse! Its rider held a pair of scales in his hand, and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's pay,** and three quarts of barley for a day's pay, but do not damage the olive oil and the wine!"
When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, "Come!" I looked and there was a pale green horse! Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, famine and pestilence, and by the wld animals of the earth.
*"Come!" also as "Go!"
**A denarius
King James
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat theron to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt no the oil and the wine.
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And Power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
more translations
And I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering, and to conquer.
And when He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
And when He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard as it were a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart* of wheat for a denarius,** and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."
And when He broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name "Death;" and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, TO KILL WITH SWORD AND WITH FAMINE AND WITH PESTILENCE AND BY THE WILD BEASTS OF THE EARTH.
*Literally choenix, a dry measure almost equal to a quart.
*A denarius was worth about 18 cents in silver, equal to a day's wage.
The Jerusalem Bible
Immediately a white horse appeared, and the rider on it was holding a bow; he was given the victor's crown and he went away, to go from victory to victory.*
When he broke the second seal, I heard the second animal shoulder, "Come." And out came another horse, bright red, and its rider was given this duty: to take away peace from the earth and set people killing each other. He was given a huge sword.
When he broke the third seal, I heard the third animal** shout, "Come." Immediately a black horse appeared, and its rider was holding a pair of scales; and I seemed to hear a voice shout from among the four animals and say, "A ration of corn for a day's wages, and three rations of barley for a day's wages, but do not tamper with the oil or the wine."***
When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth animal shout, "Come." Immediately another horse appeared, deathly pale, and its rider was called Plague,**** and Hades followed at his heels. They were given authority over a quarter of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague and wild beasts.
*The rider on the white horse (symbol of victory) represents the Parthians, identified by the bow, their favourite weapons. They were the terror of the Roman world in the first century. These are the "wild beasts" of v. 8 (i.e. victorious pagan nations, cf. Dt 7:22; Ezk 34:28; Jr 15:24; 50:17). The Parthian invasion is described in the visions of 9:13f. One tradition identified the rider with the Messiah, as in 19:11-16.
**The symbolism derives from Ezk 1:5-21. The "animals" are the four angels responsible for directing the phsyical world. "Four" symbolises the universe; their many eyes symbolise God's omniscience and providence. They give unceasing glory to God for his creation. The figures of lion, bull, man, eagle suggest all that is noblest, strongest, wisest, most swift in the created world.
***Symbol of famine: food is rationed and sold at a prohibitive price.
****Literally "death," but this word (as in "the black death") signifies an endemic plague.
one more
New International Version
I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a great sword.
When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine."
When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
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Hmm, see, I think Duncan would have agreed Methos was a pestilence. He'd already called him an ass earlier in the episode...
Thank you for all the translations. *G*
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Though the evidence cited in this post makes a good case for Kronos as Death. Hmmm. I'm really not sure what I think now. I always took it for granted that Methos was Death just cause he says so. I'm going to have to think about it, and, oh terrible hardship, watch the episodes again.
By the way, jmtorres (Juliette? what do you go by round here?), pleased to meet you. I'm Pun, only newly involved in the Highlander fandom these past few months, and I found my way here from a link in Rhi's lj.
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I feel your pain! In the course of vidding, I have watched some scenes as many is 28 times.
jmtorres (Juliette? what do you go by round here?),
Either is fine, or Jul for short.
I'm Pun, only newly involved in the Highlander fandom these past few months, and I found my way here from a link in Rhi's lj.
I am also newly involved. In fact, Comes a Horseman was the first episode I saw. *G* Pleased to meet you.
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You know I won't stop laughing at this for a long long time, right?
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Excellent post!
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Hm, I wonder if he ate children. Not his own, presumably, since as an Immortal he shouldn't have any, but still, stories start *somewhere.*
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