Random research

[jmtorres]

I was actually trying to find the earliest reference of the phrase "hourglass figure" (without much luck--anyone got any idea?) when I found this page:

Jolly Roger. Apparently our standard skull and crossbones wasn't the commonest pirate flag.

Comments

[lomer.livejournal.com]

I can't help with the hourglass figure, although I guess the term came from corsets which shape the body into an hourglass figure (and are DAMN uncomfortable too! All that romantic talk of women swooning and such, it's not because they were overly emotional, it's literally because it's VERY difficult to breathe in a corset and therefore if you become distraught at all... or do something as simple as walk too fast, it's very easy to faint.)

The Jolly Roger stuff is fun. *g* I did some research for a Pirate Faire I worked in, and I was amazed at the different flags, outfits, stories, and terms. Pirates are not as simplistic as modern stories usually make them.

Have fun with the research! *g* I've been enjoying the snippits you've posted so far.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

although I guess the term came from corsets which shape the body into an hourglass figure (and are DAMN uncomfortable too! All that romantic talk of women swooning and such, it's not because they were overly emotional, it's literally because it's VERY difficult to breathe in a corset and therefore if you become distraught at all... or do something as simple as walk too fast, it's very easy to faint.)

As, of course, Elizabeth did... both the wearing and the fainting...

I'm just not sure by how much the corsets predated the phrase. Hm.

[lomer.livejournal.com]

As, of course, Elizabeth did... both the wearing and the fainting...

I was quite pleased to see Elizabeth's reaction to the corset. I liked Elizabeth, she was a strong female character without being a 20th Century lass in a 1700's film...

[methought.livejournal.com]

This refers to the earliest appearance of the hourglass on a pirate flag (http://www.cosmosmith.com/jolly_roger.html), but not the actual phrase.
-anomia

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

*nodding* Ironically, I wasn't even searching in a piratical sense when that page popped up. I just meant, hourglass figure like huge boobs, huge hips, tiny waist.

[methought.livejournal.com]

Okay, I understand now (I'm a little dense today). You're looking for the etymology of the phrase! I'm visiting relatives this week, but when I get home I might be of help--got shelves of books on word and phrase origins! I'll check it out.
-anomia

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Yep. Etymological research. And OED isn't helping--it doesn't even list 'hourglass' as a single word, unhyphenated. Silly Brits.

[graygirl.livejournal.com]

Drat, none of my books have it, not even Word Mysteries & Histories, and I would have thought it would be there.

[cyprinella]

Hourglass is apparently from 1515, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary I love. (Page down to hour.)

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's not considered a "phrase" so much as a cliché metaphor? *thinks*

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

*nodding* But when did it start getting used metaphorically as opposed to merely literally?

c. attrib., referring to the shape of an hour-glass.
1822-34 Good's Study Med. (ed. 4) IV. 173 If the uterus..should contract..transversely so as to form what has been called an Hour-glass contraction. 1860 G. H. K. Vac. Tour. 119, I used to think that the Pechts..built them hour-glass fashion to prevent the said enemy scrambling into them.

Fairly late, and not even with the phrase "hourglass figure" I'm looking for. Damn it.

[cyprinella]

Hm. I really haven't a clue - best I could do was the orgination of hourglass itself. I think I always associated it with corsetry, so you could go with the introduction of the corset.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Which originates 1299, long before the hourglass.

Hm.

[cyprinella]

Must remember to check screenname. Hrmph.

Anyway, random article about corset used for squishing rather than breast emphasizing before 1800's that I can't find again. But you probably knew that because you seem to be on top of this history thing. ;)

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Hah! The corsets of this movie were *so* having of the breasts flowing out of the top. I take this as further evidence that the movie was set in the late 1700s rather than early or 1600s. Even though I put costuming fairly low on the list of reliable evidence.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Whoops, replied, you deleted, fun all around...

Actually, I had some impression of corsets-as-we-know-them being a product of the Victorian era, but had nothing to back this up.

I'm not on top of this history thing so much as learning random tidbits here and there, from people like you. *G*

[jcalanthe]

B & I still think her corset was more of the flattening variety than the flowing out of the top kind.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

Hee, yes, as we discussed last night. Knock the wind from my sails, will you...

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

1) Barbossa's flag in the movie was a skull and crossed blades, yes, like Rackham's?

2) Now the "hourglass figure" thing is going to bug me. Have you tried phrase origin books? Mine doesn't have it, but another one might.

3) As regards time period of PotC, the scriptwriters say 1720s, which doesn't make sense as regards Port Royal (which they got wrong in the movie anyway), but which is apparently fairly accurate as regards clothing. The idea is that Barbossa is the last dregs of serious piracy. The problem with late 1700s is that (as far as I know), piracy in the Caribbean had pretty much been stamped out.

4) Isn't Elizabeth's corset also stays? I've been hearing that around a lot.

5) The costuming in the movie is sort of all over the place, anyway.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

1) Barbossa's flag in the movie was a skull and crossed blades, yes, like Rackham's?

Yeah, looks like. I wonder if that's just Barbossa's flag, or if it's what Jack flies too? They wouldn't have had a piratey flag on the Intercepter, and we never really saw the Pearl under Jack's command...

3) As regards time period of PotC, the scriptwriters say 1720s,

Is it Morgan or Roberts? I can't recall anymore--but one of them was sailing 1718-1722, iirc, which makes 1720s sound improbable to me with that Elizabeth would then make historical reference.

5) The costuming in the movie is sort of all over the place, anyway.

Yeah, I count costuming as pretty low on the scale of dating accuracy. Dialogue comes above just about everything to me.

4) Isn't Elizabeth's corset also stays? I've been hearing that around a lot.

Yuh... I think. The significance of this is? I'm still learning about corsets.

2) Now the "hourglass figure" thing is going to bug me. Have you tried phrase origin books? Mine doesn't have it, but another one might.

Yes. You, me, and methought, and possibly someone else besides. All drawing blanks. bearfairie thinks hourglasses were modeled after women rather than the other way around, but I suspect that of being somewhat revisionist.