Oh-miles-WHAT

[jmtorres]

I er, realized that there's a volume I've reread less often even than Mirror Dance--that being Borders of Infinity.

Here we have this gem in Bel's introduction in Labyrinth: Bel Thorne, the Ariel's commander, was a Betan hermaphrodite, man/woman descendant of a centuries-past genetic-social experiment every bit as bizarre, in Miles's private opinion, as anything rumored to be done for money by House Ryoval's ethics-free surgeons.

Ryoval. What.

Comments

[carmarthen]

True, but.

How do you ever find out herm children will be okay if you don't make herm children in the first place? I'm not sure I agree that modding the parents so that they will produce offspring like themselves is just like modding babies. Wouldn't it be just as risky (or perhaps even more so) for herm parents to have non-herm children, who might develop issues because they're different from their parents? Wouldn't it be just as unethical to say "Fine, then anyone who wants to be a herm (or is naturally born herm) can't reproduce?" Forbidding herm surgery entirely to sidestep the reproduction issue isn't exactly ethical, either.

I'm not sure there are any good ethical answers here, much less ones that will fit into Bujold's world, since Bujold has...odd and often problematic takes on gender and sexuality.

[jmtorres]

I'm not sure I agree that modding the parents so that they will produce offspring like themselves is just like modding babies.

I suspect the dividing point in the logic is: as we're shown it, Betan sex change surgery does NOT give every cell a genetic sex change, it only grafts (mostly) cloned sex organs onto your original body, and even if they did do a full genetic change on the adults, that's still after they're adults, not when they're undergoing puberty. Whereas: first-generation *genetic* hermaphrodite babies (whether with herm or monosexual parents) would experience physiologically different, not entirely predictable childhood and puberty with possible physical health consequences. Regardless of how those kids mapped into social construct gender funtimes, even. So yeah. Would it be ethical to do genetic modification of that kind? It would really depend on how sure you could be of the results.

Wouldn't it be just as unethical to say "Fine, then anyone who wants to be a herm (or is naturally born herm) can't reproduce?"

I would also like to put that in the context of Beta's attitude about reproduction in general, which is that you have to be licensed for it.

[carmarthen]

I would also like to put that in the context of Beta's attitude about reproduction in general, which is that you have to be licensed for it.

It might make sense in that context, but that wouldn't make saying an entire group of people is unlicensable for reproduction ethical. (And I'm not convinced the Betan licensing system is ethical in the first place.)

[grey_bard]

YES it is always unethical to perform dangerous experiments on babies just to see if you can get them to come out a new and different way, if there was nothing wrong with them in the first place.

Do you know how many "culls" come out when they're doing genetic experiments on animals? A lot. And yeah. Some of those culls live. For a while. How is that somehow an okay thing to do to children just because you want children just like you?

People handle having children of other genders than their own all the time. Those kids that wanted to could become herms themselves someday.

Yes "We want babies like us!" is a far more laudable intention then "Tee hee wonder what happens", but it's still unethical as hell and potentially really unfair to the children.

Yes, there never would have been any born herms, and yes, now that it did turn out okay, born herms are awesome, but the original scientists? STILL WRONG.

[carmarthen]

I'm not arguing that what the original scientists did was ethical, more that I can't see an ethical path through the situation of creating herms (or not creating herms if the technology is available and people want it) at all. There are pitfalls everywhere.

[grey_bard]

Sometimes there just isn't one. Sometimes there isn't an ethical way to get something to happen which, if successful, would be great. Sometimes good people just have to shrug and go "Then I guess we shouldn't do it" even if the goal itself is worthy.

Besides, you'd still have herms. Just adult herms-by-choice, not born herms.

[carmarthen]

Agreed.

Besides, you'd still have herms. Just adult herms-by-choice, not born herms.

True, I had forgotten how Betan surgery (did not) affect reproductive DNA.